June 21, 2009

Episode 91: Everybody Loves Racism

16 comments:

XantesFire said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
XantesFire said...

Sure in the "real" world the whole "west coast vs east coast" bullshit has been blown out of proportion and seems over. Guess in the Boys' world it's not over, sort of like superheroes don't exist in our world but they do there. It's fictional. Did you complain about Nixon still being president in Watchmen or Reagan in The Dark Knight Returns? "Oh, they're not president anymore so they shouldn't have them as presidents." It's a fictional, alternate timeline, don't you understand comics?

Context? Do you even know what that word means?

So he uses "nigger", so what? He can't use it cause he's white? Fuck off. He is writing a story that in no way whatsoever seems
to involve you. So, YOU are trying not to use "nigger". Did anyone tell Garth Ennis? No. Think he cares? No, I think not.

"Out of context", Do you understand what that phrase means?

He appears to be trying to get across the point of two groups of black people who think they are badass, insulting each other. Gee, maybe they should use , "buddy". Try rereading that but with "buddy" inserted in place of "nigger." Grow up, or stop reading adult comics.

It's realistic that some black people use "nigger" on themselves, or on others or for no reason, as either a friendly gesture or insulting manner. (See J.D.) (Oh, wait, is J.D, black?) "Nigger" isn't the only insult phrase Ennis uses, Should "motherfuckers" be insulted too? How about, "wankers." Or "faggots?" Is your co-host, who I will not name, insulted just cause they use it in the comic? Probably, he is highly christian.

How are you defining, "Nigger?" A group of friends used to use it as a lazy, don't want to work or goto school kind of person. Didn't matter if you were black, white, Hispanic, Korean, Vietnamese or Pakistani. Don't want to go to school? "Come on you lazy ass nigger, get ready we leave in 10 minutes or I'll run you over."

How are you defining "nigger" if you think they are only mystical creatures?

I'm not Mexican, not that there's anything wrong with it.
But I thought I explained it to you that Pinguin's a well loved caricature, it's not hatred they feel to him. And the main characters are sometimes made cartoony while the rest of the character are made more realistic so the focus is on the main characters.

Translation could have been in the back like in some Spanish comics when they have a foreign language, and/or it shows the perception of the characters who don't understand those other languages.

I thought you read the wiki entry. It said that in that particular storyline the boys get into a fight when they stand up for their friend, Pinguin and end up in jail.

"Somewhere over the Rainbow" was probably big cause "The Wizard Of Oz" just came out.

They used fake countries or cities cause that way they wouldn't offend people from other countries or cities. And they could do whatever they wanted with the politics and people.

Superman's political wrangling worked cause he had the heads of state right there. No foot soldiers or civilians dying, only ones threatened were the countries' leaders. Very unlike Bush.

Back in the 30's comic books weren't just for kids, the majority of adults used to read them too.

Wait. first you say they shouldn't use their powers to make a living then you say they should use their powers to make a real living? What?

Countdown to Stinkycon 2008, since 2008.

Thoom said...

>>Sure in the "real" world the whole "west coast vs east coast" bullshit has been blown out of proportion and seems over. Guess in the Boys' world it's not over, sort of like superheroes don't exist in our world but they do there. It's fictional. Did you complain about Nixon still being president in Watchmen or Reagan in The Dark Knight Returns? "Oh, they're not president anymore so they shouldn't have them as presidents." It's a fictional, alternate timeline, don't you understand comics?>>

Regan was in office at the time DKR was released. Watchman was clearly alternate “if heroes existed everything would be different". Nixon was a comment on that. These guys are making commentary through their art. So is Ennis, but Moore’s and Miller’s made more sense, which is why we are still talking about those two pieces of work to this day. They even ushered in a new age of comics (of which Ennis is still riding). Ennis’ tired rehashing of the East Coast/West Coast thing is also a statement: “I’m old and out of touch.” Though that is unintentional. His conscious artistic statement is: these blacks really annoy me with their violent hip hop culture, so I will dis niggers.” He did this earlier in the series issue #21. If he feels that way, fine. I am just saying: “Fuck you, Garth”.

>>Context? Do you even know what that word means?>>

Yeah motherfucker. From Merriam Webster:

1 : the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning

The quarreling “ignorant niggers” with the outdated East v. West battle is the discourse.

It does not throw light on the meaning of the story about both the deconstruction of the X-Mutant phenom in comics and exploitation of minors and youth culture. Therefore the east coast/west coast thing is “out of context”.

2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs : environment,


The east coast/west coast battle, and black people calling each other nigger is not related to anyting else in the story. If I was watching the "Manchurian Candidate", and in the middle fo the movie, the director walked onscreen and yelled "NIGGER NIGER NIGGER. My name is _______ and I can't stand a goddamn monkey-faced foul mouthed nigger. I am talking to all you blacks in the audience. African Americans whatever you call yourselves. Fucking mexican too. Get out of my country." Then walked offscreen. That may be an artisitc statement, but I would feel that it is "out of context" with the rest of the movie. And I would make a comment about it. I would assume that the director may not like black people, that it wasn't an act. And it would be fair to say that I didn't expect a white person to call me a nigger for no good reason, as I was reading or watching his/her work about a different subject etirely.

Thoom said...

>>So he uses "nigger", so what? He can't use it cause he's white? Fuck off. He is writing a story that in no way whatsoever seems to involve you.>>

You bet it involves me. He is using a derogatory term to describe me and race of people. A race that he does not belong to. This could signify that he is a racist, and I’m buying his comics. This does concern me. I was set on buying every issue of the Boys up to the end since I know it ends at 60. But why support him? However the story is good so I may borrow copies from my friend Bucky and not support him financially.

Same as if I said “fuck all spics” on a few of my shows. Even though I didn’t say your name specifically, it could be interpreted as involving you.

>>So, YOU are trying not to use "nigger". Did anyone tell Garth Ennis? No. Think he cares? No, I think not.>>

I didn’t suggest that he would care. But he put his opinion of black folks in the middle of my comic book, so I put my opinion of him in my show. I give my opinions on my show. That happens from time to time.

>>"Out of context", Do you understand what that phrase means?>>

Yes, yes I do. You wrote that question two times. Do you re-read your shit before you post? Do you understand what “proof-read” means, mother fucker?

>>He appears to be trying to get across the point of two groups of black people who think they are badass, insulting each other. Gee, maybe they should use , "buddy". Try rereading that but with "buddy" inserted in place of "nigger." Grow up, or stop reading adult comics.>>

Adult comics? Do YOU know what that means? Anything labeled with the term adult or mature doesn’t just mean profanity, nudity and violence. It should mean the art has subject matter and opinions that may be controversial or thought provoking. Subjects that might cause discussion and/or debate. Ennis gets that people are gonna give opinions on his work in articles and essays, whether he gets to answer back or not. That is what I did. That’s discourse on a piece of adult fiction. Do you get it?

>>How are you defining, "Nigger?" A group of friends used to use it as a lazy, don't want to work or goto school kind of person. Didn't matter if you were black, white, Hispanic, Korean, Vietnamese or Pakistani. Don't want to go to school? "Come on you lazy ass nigger, get ready we leave in 10 minutes or I'll run you over.">>

I can call anyone a Leprechaun, but we know what the original image and origin of a Leprechaun is: a very small redheaded irish humanoid creature. We all know what the image of a nigger is.

Thoom said...

>>How are you defining "nigger" if you think they are only mystical creatures?>>

Did you listen to the show? Let me repeat for the short bus kids: How do you define/describe the myth of Santa Claus or Leprechaun? The original image motherfucker. You know what I meant by nigger, but I will spell it out for you to make it legit:

Ebony White, Memin Pinquin, the mannerisms of Stepinfethcit and even some hip hop/urban types. Anything as the black being lazy, materialistic, and sometimes a parody of the upper class: mispronouncing words, buying uneccesary expensive accessories and clothes, while being poor and living in squalor to the point of looking ridiculous, etc. The myth started before people started to emulate it, and now since hip hop culture is so widespread, the negative aspects of the culture are
more popular. Now ‘anyone’ can be a nigger. Like Eazy paraphrased “ Imma nigger He’s a nigger she;s a nigger, we some niggas, wouldn’t you like to be a nigger too?”


>>But I thought I explained it to you that Pinguin's a well loved caricature, it's not hatred they feel to him. And the main characters are sometimes made cartoony while the rest of the character are made more realistic so the focus is on the main characters.>>

Bullshit. Another Memin defender described the character more in-depth, to the detriment of her argument in defense of the character. Memin is actually “a mythical nigger” who is merely comic relief. The blogger says Memin is great because all of the non-black supporting characters have soap opera type problems and drama going on. The only characters who have their shit together with minimal problems is Memin and his mother, she says. Not only that, but all of the other characters love Memin.

I submit that everybody loves Memin because he is the “mythical nigger”, i.e. the clown. His mother is the asexual “mammy” whose life has seems to have one purpose only: in this case be the mother/mammy. Memin and his mother don’t have problems as complex as the white and Mexican characters because Memin and Mammy are not human. They are cartoon characters, while the non-black folks are fleshed out, thus further de-humanizing the only black characters in the series.

In the issue where Memin is refused service at a restaurant, it is the Mexican boy, Carlos who fights Memin’s battle for him. You can see on the cover of that issue, Memin cowering in fear and fleeing to his hot-tempered friend for help.

Cover: http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/wp-content/2008/07/memin.jpg

Dumb-Ass article that I referred to:
http://adalisaz.blogspot.com/2008/07/trouble-with-memin-pinguin.html

>>"Somewhere over the Rainbow" was probably big cause "The Wizard of Oz" just came out.>>

No shit.

Back in the 30's comic books weren't just for kids, the majority of adults used to read them too.

It was family entertainment first.

Wait. first you say they shouldn't use their powers to make a living then you say they should use their powers to make a real living? What?

Just enjoy the show

XantesFire said...

>>Regan was in office at the time DKR was released.<<
Reagan was in office at the time of release in 1986 and is suppose to be still president 10 years later in 1996, when The Dark Knight Returns takes place.

>>Ennis’ tired rehashing of the East Coast/West Coast thing is also a statement:<<
Or that some of the rappers put a stop to the East/West coast rivalry so it had nowhere else to go. But in the Boy's world it seems to have carried on into superheroics.

Since most of the readers are probably atleast 18 they would be somewhat familiar with the West/East Coast rivalry. If you're showing exploitation of youth culture, why not bring back something the music industry was exploiting a few years back and still is the Hip Hop culture.

>>Therefore the east coast/west coast thing is “out of context”.<<
Out of context with the rest of the comic? Did you not say that people were concern about the two different groups of G-Men meeting up? So it's not out of context to have them fighting if that was mentioned. It's part of the story.

>>If I was watching the "Manchurian Candidate", and in the middle fo the movie, the director walked onscreen and yelled "NIGGER NIGER NIGGER.<<
And when does anyone break the fourth wall and speaks directly to the audience?

>>You bet it involves me. He is using a derogatory term to describe me and race of people. A race that he does not belong to.<<
Does Alex Haley consider all black people "niggers" since he uses the word many times in a book about his family? Or that slavery is okay since some of his family are portrayed as slaves? Sam Clemens wrote of a slave, used the word "nigger" and he's white. Sometimes writers use their writings to express their opinions and sometimes just to tell a story.
And you still fail to understand that concept.

You also used "nigger" on many of your shows until YOU decided not to use it. How he's using it in the context of the story is not meaning to be insulting to you but it is a couple of black people being insulting to each other. Again use the word "buddy" and see if it's looks good to you.

>>Same as if I said “fuck all spics” on a few of my shows.<<
In what context?

>>Yes, yes I do. You wrote that question two times.<<
No, I asked did you know what the word, "context" and what the phrase, "out of context" mean. Two different questions, inspired by when I was listening to your podcast made me think, "Them words too fancy for Tim, he doesn't understand what they mean."

>>That’s discourse on a piece of adult fiction. Do you get it?<<
Of course you can discourse all you want and not just on adult material, you can discourse on Bugs Bunny or kiddie comics. Didn't we just discourse over Mazing Man? You can even discourse on old Legion Of Superheroes comics. (See Super Future Friends.)

>>Anything as the black being lazy, materialistic, and sometimes a parody of the upper class: mispronouncing words, buying uneccesary expensive accessories and clothes, while being poor and living in squalor to the point of looking ridiculous, etc.<<
Ah see, You said "niggers" are mythical, but you just proved they do exist. (It's not really a proud victory.) And you just proved that Memin and his mom aren't "niggers", they are only poor because they are poor and not because they buy unnecessary things.

XantesFire said...

>>Memin is actually “a mythical nigger” who is merely comic relief. <<
Actually that's not what he said on his blog, in fact he points out that anyone who believes Memin is racist hasn't read much of it. "Here I'd make a pause to mention that the only real happy family of the whole thing, the ones who didn't had a soap-operaish past, and whose only problem was the lack of money which is still true to this day for many Mexican families, were Memin and his mother..." He's saying not that they were clowns but that they seem to be the well adjusted normal family so they don't have all the drama besides being poor. And his mother wasn't a "mammy', that she was the most important figure of authority for the group.

>>In the issue where Memin is refused service at a restaurant, it is the Mexican boy, Carlos who fights Memin’s battle for him.<<
Carlos is the heavy, if you're outclassed wouldn't you look for your stronger friends for help in a fight? Besides that's the cover, and it looks like Memin is trying to stop his friend from fighting not going to him for security.

>>It was family entertainment first<<
Okay, family entertainment, and many adults read them so they tended to be focus on older more mature audiences. It was the age before Wertham, before they infantized the heroes. Cartoons started off as adult fare.

>>Just enjoy the show<<
Cope out.

Thoom said...

>>"Them words too fancy for Tim, he doesn't understand what they mean.">>

This is what I mean when i infer that the people who read Memin Penquin are condescending toward biack folk.

>>And when does anyone break the fourth wall and speaks directly to the audience?>>

They do a lot of stupid shit in movies and fiction media. Like have two black super teams calling each other nigger for no reason.

Of course he set up that (ultimately) two panel "joke" that
was just an excuse for Ennis to throw out the N-bomb.
THOOM SAYS
>> Definition of nigger: Anything as the black being lazy, materialistic, and sometimes a parody of the upper class: mispronouncing words, buying uneccesary expensive accessories and clothes, while being poor and living in squalor to the point of looking ridiculous, etc.<<

The racist said:
>>Ah see, You said "niggers" are mythical, but you just proved they do exist.>>

The "nigger" is inherently thses things and cannot change which is the basis of all that southern and KKK rhetoric against black people.
But since no one can have that in their genes, it's a myth. Black people who are doing these things just play a part, like the Salvation Army "Santa Claus".

>>Memin and his mom aren't "niggers",>>

There are many "nigger archetypes." Memin and his mother are the "Coon Nigger Caricature".

>>"Here I'd make a pause to mention that the only real happy family of the whole thing, the ones who didn't had a soap-operaish past, and whose only problem was the lack of money which is still true to this day for many Mexican families, were Memin and his mother..." >>


None of this addresses their non humanity. I have to read the comic (Even though the look of the characters is enough to deem this book racist.)

>>And his mother wasn't a "mammy', that she was the most important figure of authority for the group.>>

Then why the fuck did they make her look like that. Don't tell me in the forties that was the "look" for black woman. No. It was the American racist's and filmmaker;s look for black women, and the Mexicans ran with it.

...except Mexico hasn't changed in 60s years.

The fact that Memin comics can sell, virtuallly unchanged since the 40s says a lot for the state of the Mexican culture.

XantesFire said...

>>This is what I mean when i infer that the people who read Memin Penquin are condescending toward biack folk.<<
I'm not being condescending to black folk, I'm being condescending to you in this case.

>>They do a lot of stupid shit in movies and fiction media.<<
Okay, but I'm talking about this comic you were discussing on the podcast. You do understand what breaking the fourth wall means? Cause what you've said gives no indication that they did, it's just a bunch of people arguing among themselves, not talking to the audience.

>>Like have two black super teams calling each other nigger for no reason.<< Did the two groups not like each other? Were they trying to insult each other? Have you ever seen two black people or groups insulting each other? They sometimes use "nigger" alot.

>>Of course he set up that (ultimately) two panel "joke" that
was just an excuse for Ennis to throw out the N-bomb.<<
Okay then you admit there was a setup, storywise to have the two groups verbally insulting each other. And if they were other that black, he would have had them use other words that would be insulting to them unless they were Whiggers, then they would use "niggers."

>>The racist said:<<
How am I the racist if by your definition they do exist? And you were the one to point out that they do?

>>Memin and his mother are the "Coon Nigger Caricature"<<
Yes, I and the blogger have already admitted to the fact, (not in that phrase) but we do not admit they were created that way because they were being racist or out of hatred.

>>I have to read the comic (Even though the look of the characters is enough to deem this book racist.)<<
See you don't get it, his looks aren't a big deal and that's exactly what the blogger points out.

>>None of this addresses their non humanity.<<
>>Then why the fuck did they make her look like that. Don't tell me in the forties that was the "look" for black woman.<<
Of course not, if you read the bloggers words instead of skimming over you would understand that yes they did use caricatures of the two main characters but not out of hatred. Probably not any black people looked like them but he points out that in the 40's when they were created, it wasn't a big deal. And in the 60 years it shows that most Mexicans don't see it as insulting.

>>The fact that Memin comics can sell, virtuallly unchanged since the 40s says a lot for the state of the Mexican culture.<<
Yes, it does, as the blogger points out, it's easy to just reprint the old issues. Noone in Mexico is offended by Memin. There's a huge cultural difference that makes Memin's silly looks as no big deal.

Thoom said...

No, Memin isn't used for hatred. He is beloved. BUt not like a family member, but like acute pet, like snooppy or Bubbles the Monkey. The white families of the 19th and Early 20th century loved their "mammies", too, but they did not see them as "equals". it was more of a condescension.

XantesFire said...

>>No, Memin isn't used for hatred. He is beloved. BUt not like a family member, but like acute pet, like snooppy or Bubbles the Monkey. The white families of the 19th and Early 20th century loved their "mammies", too, but they did not see them as "equals". it was more of a condescension.<<

Good you atleast admit it's not hatred, but it's also not condescension. His mother is as the blogger put it, she was the most important figure of authority for the group with even Memin's teacher and the other parents bowing to her wisdom. Memin was usually the one in charge of his group of friends.

Thoom said...

The fact that the only blacks look like that makes it a racist comic.

XantesFire said...

If a tree falls in the forest and noone is there to hear it does it make a sound? If a caricature of a person isn't considered racist is it racist? Only when it gets north of the border.

THOOM said...

>>If a tree falls in the forest and noone is there to hear it does it make a sound? If a caricature of a person isn't considered racist is it racist? Only when it gets north of the border.>>

Is a joke funny if I rap it in a cliche? No.

Memin isn't considered racist South of the Border. We should follow their example... Because Mexico really has it's shit together.

XantesFire said...

Of course they don't have all their shit together. Do you think racism is a problem in US? You seem to think so and I agree. But is it a problem there?

XantesFire said...

Lift